Topic: Yep... Definitelty something I have not seen before.... (Read 5319 times)

kyuball · « **on:** November 19, 2008, 02:36:30 PM »

So, I went to BG on 11/19 on my way to work and take pictures of the marker that I thought I had not seen before and, indeed, it was not there when I went last. The photos below are comparisons between my last full on day visit about a year ago (about a month before the last time I went before the two brief drop bys this year) and, well... today!

kyuball · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2008, 02:40:17 PM »

And the star of the show.... HERBIE!!!!

Now I can ask the question to all of you more frequent visitors: Was Herbie moved from another spot in BG by some douche bags or is he a new appearance?

Matt743 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2008, 08:57:12 PM »

Kyuball, all I can say is.... WOW!

(Thanks for taking those pics, by the way)

That's pretty cool. I'm pretty sure I've never seen that stone either, and I know I would've remembered it b/c he was a WWI veteran. So, I'm sure someone had it laying around somewhere. I mean, just look at how scuzzy it looks.

I hope we can make sense out of Herbie!

kyuball · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2008, 01:38:04 PM »

I was hoping the site administrator would be able to weigh in on this as he seems the most knowledgeable.

kappy0405 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2008, 07:00:16 AM »

hmm that is interesting.

The edges look like they're in decent shape. If I had to make my best guess, I would say the family ordered a new head piece maybe.

then again, if that were the case, it would be on straight and cemented in place..

I've never seen that name in the grove though.. definitely strange.

Aten · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2008, 09:44:53 AM »

I looked and that name is not in the records of burials here on the main page but I bet there is a record of him where he is buried. The Army would have it and probably a undertaker could look it up fast.

Matt743 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2008, 08:19:27 PM »

Good idea Aten, those could both be leads worth pursuing. Last night two other ideas came to me: We could call the Cook County Department of Health and see if we couldn't get a copy of his death certificate. (Might cost around 10 bucks or therabouts) I've used these for genealogical research in the area, and I know that this would definitely list his place of burial. However.... their website said something about proving that you were a relative of the person in question in order to get a copy. :?
(The Illinois State Archives will send free copies with no questions asked, but unfortunately they'll only do that with the death certificates going up to 1950)

Another option would be checking microfilm records of the Chicago Tribune or the other local papers to see if his obit made it in there.

Then again, this is all just assuming that he actually died in Cook County!

I think it's only a matter of time before we unravel this.

Aten · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2008, 10:13:24 PM »

Hey Matt, I went online last night and tried to find Herbert Sterling and had no luck. I like you do genealogical research from time to time and could`nt find him. Now what I did was copy the picture and wrote to the Dept of Veterans Affairs asking if they could help here because I honestly don`t think he is buried here at BG. Hopefully they will get back to me on this as they have the resources for Veterans especially for Illinois. Maybe one of us can get this matter taken care of. That stone is a Gov. issue and they would have a record of who he is.

Matt743 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2008, 01:24:05 AM »

Ah cool, Aten! Yeah, Once Veterans Affairs sees that this (government issue!) tombstone was just floating around somewhere, and has now mysteriously turned up in a cemetery in which it might not belong, I'm sure they'll do something. (And hopefully tell you where Mr. Sterling really is, ha)

Aten · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2008, 04:59:42 AM »

Well Matt, I did`nt get a reply yet but i`m sure like you are they will get involved. Sure is sad that a Veteran from WW1 gets his resting place messed with.

I feel I did the right thing reporting it to them and Herbie can be recognised for his service in the war. There is a place near Galena IL. Charles Mound the highest point in IL. that has some very old tomb stones on display there that were washed away from their original location and the people there at least have them where they can be seen and they did`nt steal them either. It would be so cool if there was a stone mason on the board here that could fix the stones at BG. There are a few there that just need to be placed on the base that they were knocked down from and that would be a nice thing to see happen.

kyuball · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2008, 04:13:21 AM »

Hmmm... are you all sure that it is government issued? I thought the VA cemetaries marked with stone crosses and other religious markers. In any case, my contact at the VA hospital had little useful information for me... Any way I can help locate this marker's home? I can send out a bigger version of the photo to you all if you need it.

Aten · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2008, 06:26:10 AM »

Hey Kyuball, I am not a expert on tombstones but you are right about the veterans cemetaries having crosses. Now when a vet is buried in a regular cemetery the Gov. pays for the stone and I know this because when my father passed away they paid for the stone for him. Now if you go to any cemetery and look at a Veterans stone you will see how the information is put on there explaining the military service. This stone is Gov. issue i`d bet on it and i`m hoping the Veterans Affaires will answer my email to them about Herbie. Any help you can provide will be appreciated as I think all of us want this stone to be put where it rightfully belongs. One thing too the stones they use now are different than the one at BG. This man was in WW1 and they were using this type of stone before they changed to a newer type. I have a Uncle who was in WW1 and his stone is identicle to the one for Herbie. Thankyou for posting the pic and getting me involved in this as I really want to see this stone put back where it belongs. Why the hell people steal stones from cemeteries i`ll just never know.

kyuball · « **Reply #12 on:** November 26, 2008, 12:26:07 AM »

I Just spoke to another vet who works with me and he stated that non-VA cemetery headstones that the veteran's family can have the VA pay partially for is "usually flat and rests in the ground," which fits Herbie's description to a tee. Also, the link below will show you all of the available types of markers you can apply for as a veteran. The flat granite one is the exact type that Herbie is.

http://http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmtype.asp

I hope that VA contact gets back to you soon as there will be something on file for when Herbie or Herbie's family applied for that stone. Hell, maybe we can even reunite Herbie with the actual family! Is there another way that we can get some sort of message out there for surviving members of his family?

Aten · « **Reply #13 on:** November 26, 2008, 04:15:59 AM »

Kyuball I checked out the link and it sure does show the style of Herbies stone. I really was pretty sure it was a Gov. issue stone. My fathers stone is the bronze type and my uncles is like Herbies. I still hav`nt heard from the VA and if I don`t hear back from them by Friday i`ll make a phone call and try to get some help from someone there. They will probably tell me they can`t give me the information because i`m not related to him and thats fine but they can at least call the cemetery where he is buried at and make arrangments for the stone that way. Like you said maybe he will be reunited with his family. One thing I can do to is to call the undertaker that I know who has had our family business for many years he should be able to help in this endevor or at least point me in the right direction. Other than that I don`t know of any other way to get a message out to this family. The problem is we don`t have a clue as to what part of Ill. he came from or where to start at. I tried to look him up for geneological purposes and drew a blank. Maybe anyone who should read this board could give some advice too! I seen there is a cemetery in Grundy Co. that is experiencing vandalism simular to BG and who knows the stone could belong there.

trunewf · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2008, 05:32:53 AM »

This is really weird. I just did a search of obituaries from the Chicago Tribune archives for Herbert Sterling. This is what I found:

"1961-09-20
Chicago Tribune (IL)
Sterling
Edition: Chicago Tribune
Herbert W. Sterling, husband of Emily, nee Degenfelder; father of Herbert W. Sterling Jr.; brother of Gertrude McCauley, Gerhard Sterling, and the late Lorraine Harvcoft. Services Thursday, 1:30 p.m., at Hallinan Funeral Home, 2601 Vermont street, Blue Island. Interment Cedar Park. FUlton 5-0850. Copyright 1961, Chicago Tribune. For permission to reprint, contact Chicago Tribune. Record Number: 19610920dn0"

The address for Cedar Park Cemetery is:

12540 S. Halsted Street
Calumet Park, IL

How or why in the world would Herbert Sterling's gravestone end up at Bachelor's Grove?

Trudie

trunewf · « **Reply #15 on:** November 26, 2008, 05:40:19 AM »

One other thing, if you want to order Herbert Sterling's death certificate online (or anyone else in Cook County), go to: http://www.cookcountygenealogy.com

It will cost $16.75.

Trudie

Aten · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2008, 07:18:35 PM »

Trunewf, Thankyou for your interest and involvement in this matter. You sure did a fantastic job here getting onfo. on Herbert W. Sterling. I tried to find him with death records that were posted and on the V.A. deaths and came up blank. I will call the cemetery Friday and find out if they are missing the stone in question and let them know where it is at. Now the Man can be with his family again and rest in peace. It is a wonder why this tombstone would wind up at BG. I guess it just shows how much disrespect some people have for the dead or anything else in this world. Just like the idiots that trashed BG in the 60`s and 70`s. When they meet their maker theres a whole lot of explaining they`ll have to do.

John

Matt743 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 27, 2008, 01:50:35 AM »

Wow, I got busy for a day, and when I came back here to check on Herbie's status - so much has happened! It seems like everything's falling into place.

Thanks for doing all the legwork Aten, it's been really exciting to see how this case has progressed, and I can't wait to see what happens next!

Aten · « **Reply #18 on:** November 27, 2008, 06:44:47 AM »

Thanks Matt but really I did`nt get the job done Trudy found the place where Herbie is supposed to be and if it was`nt for Kuball we never would of thought about the new stone. Honestly it`s been a series of people trying to do the right thing here and I will call the cemetery tomorrow and see if they will pick the stone up from BG. I would take it to them but I don`t want to get into any trouble with the law thinking i`m stealing a stone from BG. Better to let the right people do that and i`ll post here what the cemetery tells me. Thanks to all for getting involved with Herbies stone.

John

Aten · « **Reply #19 on:** November 28, 2008, 11:22:35 AM »

Well I called the cemetery and the man said he was going to do some research on Herbie and call me back later in the PM but he never called back. So we will have to see what happens.

Matt743 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2008, 07:58:43 PM »

Ach, the man from the cemetery never called you back John? Well I hope you hear from him soon. This stone really needs to get back to its home. Good call on letting them handle this, before I saw your last message, I was wondering how we'd get it back to the cemetery it belongs in - like you said, the last thing any of us need is to be seen by a cop leaving BG lugging Herbie.... haha :lol:

Aten · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2008, 09:30:18 PM »

Thats for sure Matt! None of us needs to get busted for even doing the right thing. When I talked to the man at the cemetery I flat out told him I would of loved to bring the stone to him but I would have a hard time explaining to a cop what I was doing with a tombstone. Maybe today he`ll call and let me know that he either picked it up or this stone don`t belong in Cedar Park Cemetery? :roll:

kyuball · « **Reply #22 on:** November 29, 2008, 12:33:11 AM »

I will say, I hope that the cemetery person is even following up as looking up whether someone belongs in a plot or not should be almost instantaneous. If the family could be notified somehow, I bet this whole thing would move a lot faster! Then again, it is the holidays, so it is probably going to be difficult getting an answer soon...

Aten · « **Reply #23 on:** November 29, 2008, 04:06:08 AM »

Kyuball, I can`t figure this out! I`ve been home all day and again this dude did not call me. How hard can it be to do the research as he said he was going to do? They have records of every person that is buried in the cemetery. I have hunted up my own relatives at various cemeteries and the info. is right there anytime you need it. Now if this guy had any thought this was a prank by me why would I give him my name and phone number? I hope someone who visits BG can tell us if the stone is still there. :shock:

kyuball · « **Reply #24 on:** December 01, 2008, 10:46:49 PM »

Still no word from the cemetery? Maybe a band of us need to go down there? I work near the area, so I could probably print up a photo, check to see if the stone is still there and then get down to the cemetery and inform staff? Anyone care to join me if John does not have luck getting a hold of the cemetery staff?

Aten · « **Reply #25 on:** December 02, 2008, 05:47:10 PM »

Kyuball, I have heard nothing from the cemetery still. I could go with you but it would have to be on a Sat. as I work from 7am to 3pm during the week and travel 30 mi one way so it would be closed by the time I would get home.

chi489 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 05, 2008, 08:52:57 AM »

Maybe you could talk to the Cook County Forest Preserve and ask them permission to pull the stone out? That way you'd be able to get it over with out worry of sittin next to Bubba at county lockup

Aten · « **Reply #27 on:** December 06, 2008, 11:47:37 PM »

Heard that about Bubba! I just wonder if the Forest Preserve Dist. would allow it? From what I have heard theres a whole lot of red tape. Has anyone been there to see if the stone is still there??

kyuball · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2008, 04:48:50 AM »

The ground conditions are probably nasty getting in now because of the recent snowfall. Maybe after a period of drying out/ freezing over I will get in there again and check it out before the year is out.

Aten · « **Reply #29 on:** December 08, 2008, 09:36:09 AM »

Sounds good and I will try to get back there too!

WarGraves · « **Reply #30 on:** December 28, 2008, 08:11:47 PM »

Greetings Everyone!
Im Ted Russell, and I work for the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of War Graves, in Springfield, IL.
I received an inquiry from John Foster concerning the Federal VA Marker for:

STERLING, Herbert W.

Ive looked up this Veteran in our War Graves Index Cards and found him.
His Index Card indicates the following:
STERLING, Herbert W.
Private, SATC, USA, WW1
Enlisted: 10/15/1918
Discharged: 12/5/1918
Date of Birth: 3/26/1897 Homewood, IL.
Date of Death: 9/18/1961
Place of Death: Chicago, IL.
Date Buried: 9/21/1961
Widow: Emily

Location of Burial:
Grave #4
Lot # 11
Blk # 7
Section: Ivy
Cemetery: Cedar Park
City: Calumet Twp., IL.
Cook: Cook

Head Stone ordered: 11/14/1961
Type of Headstone ordered: Flat Granite w/Christian Emblem.
Shipped to: 2334 W. 120th St., Blue Island, IL.

This War Graves Card was completed on 10/27/1961.

I hope this information will be of some use to you.

I will forward same information to John Foster.

Ted Russell
Office of War Graves, Ill Dept of Veterans Affairs
ted.russell@illinois.va

kyuball · « **Reply #31 on:** December 29, 2008, 03:50:41 AM »

Ted, you're the greatest! Would you know the proper and legal way for the headstone to be moved back to its rightful place or is that something we have to take up with Cedar Park?

Aten · « **Reply #32 on:** December 29, 2008, 06:42:14 PM »

Thankyou Ted, I guess giving you all the information that was available on Mr. Sterling including this site proved that I was sincere on my request and you came through for us here. I did contact Cedar Pk. Cemetery a while ago and they called me once but I have not heard from them since. I don`t know if the stone was removed by them and put back where it belongs. Again thankyou for all the information you provided.

WarGraves · « **Reply #33 on:** December 30, 2008, 10:43:42 PM »

Quote from: "kyuball"

Ted, you're the greatest! Would you know the proper and legal way for the headstone to be moved back to its rightful place or is that something we have to take up with Cedar Park?

Greetings !!!

Glad to have been of some assistance with this delima.

We only have information on "Markers" if the Veteran is buried in a "private" cemetery (other than National or State Veteran facilities) within the state of Illinois, and the family/NOK have requested a Federal VA Marker. And even then it is hit & miss. This time we hit!
The Illinois Dept of Veteran Affairs offers a one-time grant of $100.00 to help with the installation costs when a Federal VA Marker is installed in a private cemetery within the state of Illinois.
We have recorded information for these markers going back to the Revolutionary War. Once again, we dont have all of them, but a good many we do. (the grant amount fluctuates with time).
Now back to our current situation. The reason we have record of this particular veteran is because a marker was ordered, and then after the installation of the marker someone applied for the Illinois "Veterans Grave Registration" grant to help off-set the cost of placing it at the grave of the Veteran.
The only "exception" to this rule is when a Veterans VA Marker is damaged by weather or vandalism, weather worn (illedgible), or it arrived with incorrect/errant information. Should these possible conditions apply, The Illinois Veterans Affairs will approve a 2nd payment. Two payments are the maxium amount allowable by law.

The pictures I have seen of this particular marker indicate that the marker is still ledgible. We do not cover any transporting of markers in such cases where the marker is moved, and/or requires relocation.

Certain signatures and qualifications buffer our Dept (and the Fed VA) from the possibility of a marker ending up in the wrong place, or in someones flower garden at a private residence (as a private memorial). We do not handle any markers that are ordered for a National or State Veteran Cemetery. All National Veteran Cemeteries are self-contained, and handle all their own ordering and installations on-site. State Veteran Cemeteries operate differently from state to state, but get assistance from the Federal NCS. (National Cemetery System).

In this particular case, if the marker needs to be moved & re-installed, then arrangements will have to be made and unfortunately there is no assistance, that I know of, to help with that cost.

I hope Ive been of some assistance to you. If there are any other questions, inquiries, or clarafications I can help with, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Ted Russell
Office of War Graves
Ill Dept of Veterans Affairs
217/782-6153

Thank-you for your kindness, and I hope everyone has a Safe and Happy New Year !!

Ted

kyuball · « **Reply #34 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:01:14 PM »

Hey Ted,

Thank you for the quick response!

My question wasn't in regards to cost of relocation as it would really not be that difficult for a couple of guys to heft the stone and drive it back to Cedar Park. My question was really in regards to whether it is LEGAL for yahoos like myself just lugging the stone from one place to another. This was obviously the job of some vandals who for whatever warped reason decided to illegally remove the headstone from Cedar Park and then place it in BG. There must be entities that are allowed to transport things like that, no?

I am of the same opinion as John that it would most likely not look very appropriate for a couple of guys to just show up at Cedar Park with a headstone and say, "Hey, can you make sure this gets back to its rightful place?" John has stated that he has not had great luck in getting Cedar Park to contact him again, so I was wondering if there was a way for us to expedite this headstone returning home as it is not a good thing for a war veteran who served this country to have his headstone left in a public place where vandals are rampant.

Any insight would help....

bachelorsgrove_com · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2011, 09:46:25 AM »

While visiting the cemetery today it looks like we now know where this headstone ended up at...

As I was passing by the pond a couple of visitors made an observation. You guessed it, it's in the pond. It's half covered in mud but with a lot of sunlight and no algae it was easily noticeable.

It's not too deep in the water so it looks we will try and fish it out. What to do with it then is another mystery. I will probably go over and visit Cedar Park cemetery first and look at the lot where this stone is supposed to be in. Then figure it out from there.

In the meantime, anyone want to help me drag it out of the pond? We have a key to unlock the roped-off path to BG so we will have a vehicle outside of the gates to the cemetery. It won't be far to carry the stone but help is needed as I walk into the pond.

Pete

kyuball · « **Reply #36 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:28:11 PM »

Hey Pete,

Long time, no post! (on my part, anyways...) I believe Private Sterling has a new headstone that was furnished by the VA at Cedar Park; which would probably explain how it got into someone's hands. It's on another post somewhere... I forgot which one... When were you thinking of yanking it out?

bachelorsgrove_com · « **Reply #37 on:** April 19, 2011, 01:15:56 AM »

We planned to get it this Saturday between 12:00 P.M. and 4:00 P.M. It looks as if the weather will be fair so we are still good to go.

Pete

Barek Halfhand · « **Reply #38 on:** April 23, 2011, 03:03:55 AM »

I hope you guys get photos of the effort ....b

bachelorsgrove_com · « **Reply #39 on:** April 23, 2011, 04:55:39 AM »

We have some photographs and video footage. I'm waiting for a few people to send in all of the material before we make a single video of the event.

Pete

Barek Halfhand · « **Reply #40 on:** April 24, 2011, 12:54:00 AM »

Were you able to successfully recover the monument?....b

bachelorsgrove_com · « **Reply #41 on:** April 24, 2011, 04:50:33 AM »

Here is some preliminary video footage of the event. We are still waiting for other volunteers to submit their material for a final version.


Headstone Recovery - Preliminary - HighRes

Pete

bachelorsgrove_com · « **Reply #42 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:34:48 AM »

Ok, so we have one volunteer come forward with some more material. Here is the final version.


Bachelors Grove Cemetery - Headstone Recovery

Pete

Barek Halfhand · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:41:36 AM »

Thus giving Herbert back the respect he deserves ...

good job

....b

bachelorsgrove_com · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:45:31 AM »

I called the cemetery where this headstone belongs and they said someone will call me back. But apparently, the headstone that replaced this missing one is said to be the kind that is flush with the ground for easier mowing of the grass. So... I have a strange feeling they won't call back because if they put the stone back it will give them maintenance issues. But no matter, if all else fails I will just leave it next to the replacement and they can deal with mowing around it

Pete

Barek Halfhand · « **Reply #45 on:** May 06, 2011, 12:33:16 AM »

You guys certainly jumped through more than a few hoops on this one ...

The nagging question is: why is a stone from a Cal City cemetery interment at Bachelor's Grove in the first place? ...
Perhaps a vandal stole it from Cedar as a prank and later had misgivings?...Having qualms about returning to the scene of the crime, the responsible party may have elected to leave it at B.G. where the cover of woods would conceal the task of carrying it to the consecrated cemetery grounds as the next best thing ....

Very strange $:-\$ ....b

Author Topic: Yep... Definitelty something I have not seen before.... (Read 5319 times)